Upgrading my Super Soco TS
I'm a relativ new guy to the whole EV scene. I've started my journey ~4 months ago when I purchased an 'used' Super Soco TS (it had 2km on it). It's been a blast to drive, I really like the looks and the handling, however the acceleration and topspeed are starting to bug me more and more especially when the battery voltages starts dropping... So I'm planning on doing something about it.
I'll try to place all required info here, if something is missing or unclear just let me know.
I'll update here as well regarding any progress with some pictures / video's (if anyone would be interested).
All pictures/videos will be uploaded here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/rWyHYPyg7BZbEREW7
- Me: 72kg, 178cm, from the Netherlands.
- I only drive onroad and it will mainly be used as a commute 3 times a week.
- The commute is 40km on flat terrain. (I do manage this distance with the current 60V26A battery)
Good, Fast & Cheap 😆
Okay, some more details then
- Range: Min 50km (The commute distance should not be an issue on a single charge and would prefer to keep the battery between 20% & 80%.)
- Top speed: 80kmh (will not drive that a whole lot, but would be nice if I can reach it)
- Commute speed: ~60kmh
- Budget: Depends. Generally I aim for decent quality/cost. So not top of the line but also no complete rubbish.
- Several 'driving' modes like I currently have
- Alarm (sound + wheel locking)
What did I already find out?
I've tried to do my homework as good as possible. It's a really interesting little world and I've loved reading reviews, build thread and watching video's. What's I've come up with so far (also thanks to flippy for his help):
- Motor: 17" QS273 4KW v3 (4KW = max allowable KW in the Netherlands)
- Controller: Sabvoton 72150 (not unlocked), Kelly 7245N, Votol EM-150/200
- Battery: 18650 20S16P based on Samsung 29E7 (should make 72V/46A which makes 3.3KW)
- BMS: unknown (bluetooth would be nice in order to check voltages for unbalance)
- Charger: unknown (charging up to max 4.1v) and slower charging is no issue for me (slower better for the battery)
- Converter: unknown
- Spotwelder: Sunko something
- Tyre: 130mm Continental / Pirelle / Dunlop something (the 273 wants 120-130 and stock is 100) and wider looks better, going even wider requires a new rear arm
I'm open for all feedback. So if this setup is overkill, the quality of the components is rubbish or whatever please let me know. If you have alternatives I will definitely be open to that since I'm still a n00b.
Sabvoton vs Kelly. I'm reading more negative things about the Kelly and I do like the looks of Sabvoton better (/care).
I'm also contemplating about also using a new display since I don't want to overcomplicate stuff with keeping the old display and the Sabvoton can be ordered incl. a screen. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000215320240.html
- Are the Samsung 29E7 okay? (they are one of the cheapest and perform well according to some test I've seen here)
- Honeycomb structure layout because that will give the biggest density and easiert to build pack within this space (150x180x330mm)
- 2 Stacks of 10S16P.18650 total 4.PNG
- Nickelstrips (20mm x 0.2mm) https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33034381554.html
- Spacers: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000158813837.html or https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32847248791.html
- Soldering the balancing wires between the cells not on them
- Adding busbars on the + & - over the total length with [color=#0000FF]6/8AWG wires[/color] (soldering before spotwelding)
- Example: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=84412&start=250#p1507977
I was thinking about adding a 12v 90mm fan for air circulation (and not adding shrinkwrap) but air circulation does mean dirt circulation and I'm not sure if this adds anything?)
- 20S 72V 150A (same port or parallel port)?
- Yzpower 84V 5A https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/32847999146.html
- Yzpower 84V 10A https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/32848536207.html??
- 84V 12A adjustable https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/4000271591588.html
- Anythign else i'm forgetting
Rough estimates of what I'm guessing the cost will be so far:
- Motor: €600
- Controller + display: €400
- Battery cells: €800
- Battery BMS: €150
- Battery Misc: €200
- (rear)Tyre: €100
- Transformer: €100
- Charger: €150
- Spotwelder: €150
- Total: €2.650
Received my new tires.
- Front: Pirelli Angel City 80/100/17
- Rear: Pirelli Angel City 120/70/17 (+5% cicum.)
Mounted the front myself, will do the rear as soon as I receive the motor.
Also ordered some other goodies:
- QS 17x3.5" 4000W 273 40H V3 960rpm
- Votol EM-150
- DC-DC converter 72v-12v 10A
Went for 960rpm instead of 1.090rpm.
- 1.090rpm should do 90kmph to 110 kmph at 72v according to QS which is more than I need.
- According to Advanced-EV Calculators 1.090rpm, 23.6" tire and gear ratio of 1 would be 76.6mph/122kmph with a 15% rotating loss = 103kmph which simply is more than I require.
- 960rpm would be 67.4mph/108kmph - 15% = 92kmph which is still more than plenty.
- Calculating with 3V cell voltage 960rpm / 3.7v * 3.0v = ~780rpm - 15% = ~47mph/75kmph
Wanted to order batteries now but saw they aren't available
- 300mm wide Heatshrink should do the trick
- I've read alot about the ANT BMS, 200A should do it
I'm open to suggestions if things can be done better/cheaper.
EDIT: Just ordered the Arduino Spotwelder kit and want to order the spacers and Nickel.
Regarding the Nickel there are some 'rules' regarding the width and thickness to use.
I'm planning on pulling 8KW max (according to QS) at 72V = 111A / 17P (should be a tight fit) = 6.5A per cell max.
0.2mm x 7mm <6.4A will be optimal and till 9.6A is acceptable, so I'm ordering the 0.2mm.
If there is an error in my thinking please let me know.
In the meantime I've received:
- the spotwelder kit
- the lipo battery for the spotwelder
- the lipo charger
- the battery holder
- the nickel
I've started stripping down the bike in order to see how it all goes together...
First problem: the motor doesn't fit inside the rear arm. Does anyone have suggestions or do I simply need a new rear arm like this one: https://www.outdoordreams.eu/Super-Soco-TS---TC-Schwinge-ALU.html
Second problem/question: it seems there is no standard meaning everything has a different connector. What is the best way to go about this? Convert everything into another typ or???
A plus is however that it looks like i'll be able to put in 20S20P inside the case (see pictures), so i'll probably do that. The Samsung 29E E7 should be in stock again within a week.
Pretty impressive setup. That's definitely a lot of time and research put in. You will definitely have the capacity to hit your desired top speeds and range plus some more.
Definitely a good call avoiding a sunkko welder. They're cheap but I also had to take mine apart and beef up some connections for it to work closer to how it's advertised. You should get a more reliable result from your arduino.
I am replacing all my connectors to have things more standard. I will be using mostly XT90, but I'm only really doing a second parallel battery and then just upgrading the controller, not the motor (I have the TC, not TS). And the amps split between the two parallels shouldn't have any issues on an XT90. Especially considering the OEM battery uses an XT60. On the charger, I'm going to try out these dead cheap power supplies
I've actually even seen someone use two of these chargers in series to double the voltage. There are also adjustable ones, as far as I know, and I'm pretty sure you can get in and adjust the pots yourself too.
I'm not sure if I just missed it but I'm sure you'll also have to replace the breaker switch as it's not rated for so many amps.
If it fits the budget, it's never terrible to have higher rated connections, particularly in the longer wires, to have as little resistance (heat) as possible.
You could opt to go for used cells to save money, but I've heard mixed reviews on that. I found LG MJ1 with minimum of 90% capacity on them. I'll be able to build my 17s11p pack all with cell capacities over 3450mah (I verified the capacities myself after receiving them as well). While I get why people might shy away, I paid around 1.40EUR per cell, and I'm taking the chance that the price difference is worth it. If you have the option and can fit it, you may benefit from treating your battery build as two separate batteries as they'll be easier to remove, if you need to, but also to diagnose and fix issues that may pop up and still have power should one go down. You'd need a second BMS, but they wouldn't need to pull so many amps each. (I'm just thinking out loud. By no means saying my ideas or setup are better in any way cause I'm certainly not an expert)
For the fork, I think Oshawa had some access to a custom rear fork (swingarm) that was a little less than what you'd pay through Outdoor dreams.
Yeah, i was eyeballing those Sunkko but also read a lot of negative things. I also think having 2 separate pins is easier to use than bringing the batteries to the welding tips, especially once I will have more and more cells connected and the weight and dimensions increase.
Connectors & cables
The power connectors I'm not to worried about, i'm mainly worried about all the other connectors (light, standard, display, alarm, horn, etc). Nothing seems to match. I can strip everything and put them in some sort of other connector, but don't know whats the best thing to do.
The standard motor wire are perhaps 1/4 of the wires on the new motor, it's night and day.
Regarding the charger, adjustable would be preferred. Thanks for the suggestion! Also planning on building it inside the bike to make charging a bit easier when I'm out and about. Perhaps I don't need it anymore with 400 cells, but whatever.
What do you mean with the 'breaker switch'? The kill switch that is currently on there? I'll have to check that one.
Regarding the cells. The Samsung 29E E7 are €1,89 when purchased more than 200pcs. With 400 cells that would make ~€770 euro. Don't want to spare 150 euro and have to take it all apart when a single cell dies. Ofc that can also happen with new cells but...
I'm in contact with Oshawa regarding the rear fork. Also contacted Outdoordreams.eu but they are not responding.. Would prefer to drive there (about 1h) and pick it up and install immediately...